That’s right. Avoid Retirement and Live the Best Years of Your Life.
Retirement is not all it’s cracked up to be. Many who are retiring at the traditional age or taking early retirement (FIRE: Financial Independence Retire Early) learn the hard way.
After a year or so they’re miserable. They lose purpose, passion, and relevance.
In this interview Dorian Metzer, one of the top global expert’s shares with you why this happens and how to avoid it. Dorian is an experienced Therapist, Life, and Retirement Transition Coach, Relationship Coach, Executive Coach, Author, Speaker, and Teacher focusing on retirees.
Connect with Dori at www.revolutionizeretirement.com
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Dorian Mintzer: [00:00:07] Retirement is changing and I’m not even sure it’s a good word. I think the concept is becoming a little bit obsolete. I often get people who come to me and say Something is missing, you know, I don’t know what it is, but I’m I’m failing retirement. I’m not happy really thinking about what am I retiring to, which is, I think, important for people to think about. It’s not a destination anymore. How do I want to live this time? So I have connection engagement and purpose and meaning?
Paul Long: [00:00:40] Talk about be careful what you ask for. Well, this is somebody you’ve even blessed for retire. I can’t wait to retire. Retiring would seem to be so easy, like falling off along, but so many people are finding that it’s like falling off a log in. That log was on a cliff. My guest has people come to her for help and they say, Dori, I’m failing at retirement. How can you fail at retirement? It’s not failing your retirement, it’s failing at life. It is a all too common story that people will retire and they have the retirement honeymoon six months a year, maybe two years. It’s wonderful. But then after that, they’re in deep depression. And by the way, there’s a spike for those people in that situation of alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce, depression, even suicide. And it stands to reason, you know, we the eras that we’ve all grown up in, whether our boomer Generation X Millennial, someday Generation Z, you’re used to being relevant, you’re used to having challenges in making a difference and having ambitions. Those are all gone. So in this interview, Dorian Mintzer is going to give you a different way to look at it’s not so much retirement per say, but this latter phase of life, and it’s a new reality even with our increased lifespan and healthspan and opportunities that are out there.
Paul Long: [00:02:00] Dorie is an author, she is a speaker, she is a therapist and she is a coach, and she is an early thought leader. In this realm of revolutionizing how we look at this phase of life to make it perhaps some of the best years of your life. So, Dorie, in our conversations, it seems that you’ve discovered a lot of what I’ve discovered you with your clients, me in my research that seems like a lot of us approach those retirement years with either a vague or even false notion of what’s in store for us, what it’s going to be like things of that sort through your practice, through all of your clients and through your own life. How much is that the case? How much of you discovered that people need to have a better sense of the reality of things?
Dorian Mintzer: [00:02:51] Well, I think a big sense. I mean, I think what’s become really clear, first of all, is that retirement is changing, and I’m not even sure it’s a good word. I think the concept is becoming a little bit obsolete because the term actually was developed a long while ago when the life expectancy was so much shorter. But now, when people think about retirement and think about the traditional retirement ages of like 60 to sixty five, you know, the reality now is we have potentially 20, 30, 40 or more potentially healthy, vital years ahead of us. So I think with that in mind, people are really thinking differently about retirement and many people, you know, approach their symptoms and think, retire. You know, some people really like what they’re doing. They’re not feeling totally burnt out from it. Some people are burnt out from what they’re doing, but they also either want to keep working or need to keep working because financially, you know, if you’re going to live 20, 30, 40 more years, you don’t want to outlive your money. So I think, you know, people approach these retirement years in a quandary. Just as you were saying, some are frightened of it. Some are looking forward to it. I find among my clients, it’s not unusual that I will get men and women, sometimes couples also, since that’s one of my specialties who come in and they want to think ahead of time, you know, for example, there’s someone I’m working with now who’s just this lovely man who’s in his fifties, actually, and he’s going to be retiring at 60 somewhat earlier.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:04:32] And he knows he’s a type, a personality, highly skilled. And he had a bit of time when he wasn’t working, when where he had been working. There was some layoffs, and he knows that he did not do well during that period of time. So he’s approaching it, saying, I want to know who I am in addition to what I do at work. And so we’ve been exploring what his skills are. Are way, way back, you know, from being a paper boy, being a Boy Scout. All his work and his case, he’s a parent. So parenting skills, what are the skills he likes? What are the ones he doesn’t like? What would he like to transfer? And then, you know, really exploring what are some interests he had to put on the back burner when he was just busy raising a family and earning as much as he could earn? And it’s helping him really feel that he can approach this retirement. Really thinking about what am I retiring to, which is, I think, important for people to think about. It’s not a destination anymore. It’s to really think about what do I want to do? Maybe not work wise, but how do I want to live this time? So I have connection engagement and purpose and
Paul Long: [00:05:49] Meaning it is a broad spectrum. As you said, some people, they want to keep working, they want to keep doing what they’re doing. Or it’s I know a lot of people are. It’s like, Well, I can’t wait to retire because I’m so sick of what I’m doing, but then they retire or they approach retirement and they’re like, Wait a minute, I don’t want to do what I’ve been doing, but I want to find something new. And then I also like what you say about getting back to your true self. And I hear a lot of people and this goes for me. It’s my turn to do what I really want to do, and I want to signify somehow make a difference. So it does sound like a broad spectrum, but it also sounds a little daunting to figure that all out.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:06:28] Well, one thing that I think is helpful for people to think about that I like to share with clients and with whomever I’m speaking with is that it’s helpful to think about. As I said, retirement is not a destination, it’s actually a transition. It’s a journey. And if you think about it with all transitions and you probably been through many of them because we have them throughout life, there’s endings, there’s this unknown period and there’s new beginnings. And some people have more trouble with the ending, some with the unknown, some with the new beginning. It’s helpful to think for yourself, where do you find it most troublesome? Do you have more trouble with endings or no one’s new beginnings with some of it? None of it, because it may help you as you’re thinking about how you’re approaching this next stage of your life to really recognize that you know right at the moment, it may feel more daunting, but it can be an exciting time, a possibility as a time to grow and learn and evolve. Many people, just as you were saying, Paul, you know, some people really are just so happy when it’s the last day of work and haven’t thought about what’s next. And there’s nothing wrong with that, too, although I do think planning ahead can be helpful. So it’s more by design than default. But many people talk about there being sort of a honeymoon phase, you know, if in fact you are more burnt out for work or, you know, it’s been a more grueling job, you might really welcome the ending and really welcome not having anything on your plate right away. What I have found, though, is it’s not unusual that within either a few months, year, maybe even a couple of years.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:08:16] I often get people who come to me and say Something is missing, you know, I don’t know what it is, but I’m I’m failing retirement. You know, I’m not happy and it is important to really take stock and figure out, how can you turn things around because it can be a slippery slope and people can spiral into too much isolation, depression, turning to drugs or alcohol. And that is not a good thing. So it’s it is important at whatever point, whether it be planning ahead. So it’s by design instead of default or just recognizing and not being afraid to admit, hey, it’s not going the way I wanted it to. I want to figure out what I’m missing. And I think that’s helpful. What I like to say to people is think about what work provided for you. If you think about it, work gives you a reason to get out of bed in the morning. It gives you usually a sense of camaraderie, a sense of community. It gives you connection, engagement, purpose and meaning. If you’re in a relationship, it gives you time together and time apart, and it makes you feel that you’re needed and visible and able to contribute. So it’s important to think about what are the parts of the many things I just mentioned that you got from work and what are important for you to build into your life? So you have that sense of community and connection and purpose and meaning and meaningful relationships because those are the foundations of well-being.
Paul Long: [00:09:55] How do you take those first steps that that if you’ve been retired for a while or if you’ve come? Headed to retirement, you suddenly realize it’s not right to you. How do you turn that around? How do you find your way out of that?
Dorian Mintzer: [00:10:05] Well, there are a number of ways. I mean, sometimes even I mean, the first step is really admitting it to yourself and and taking some time to reflect on how are you feeling now and what’s what’s working well and what isn’t working well. Because probably some things are going well and you’re doing some of the things you want. And, you know, maybe not so beginning to kind of think about it and puzzle it out for yourself. Talk to people. You’re in a relationship. It’s really helpful if you can talk to your partner or friends or siblings or adult children and seek help. I mean, there are many of us out there who are trained as retirement transition coaches or therapists for both individuals and couples. And I know sometimes people feel like it’s a sign of weakness to need help. Actually, I view it as a sign of strength to be able to say, you know, I can’t do this alone and I’m aware something’s not going right. And you might, you know, it’s often helpful to to really recognize you aren’t alone. And there are some things to do in the first step really is just admitting and trying to not feel something that you’re not enjoying it as much as you wanted to and that you’re struggling about it.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:11:22] I mean, you’re not alone. And I think that really is important. It’s not unusual, since work has been such a big part of our life. It’s not unusual for people to, you know, mostly view themselves as having a work identity. And you know, those who’ve had children sometimes have an identity of being a parent. But some people, you know, work so much that they actually didn’t feel like they really were as happy with the way they feel their parent role. You know, this is the opportunity to think about yourself and to think about how to become more whole. You know, what are the different parts of your identity work? Maybe one of it. And maybe, you know, you might decide that even though you’re retired from full time work, maybe you really do want to work on, you know, for pay. But in a different way. You know, some people want to just work part time or use your skills in a different way or volunteer. You know, there are many different ways of beginning to build some kind of connection, engagement and purpose and meaning in your life,
Paul Long: [00:12:30] Or be an entrepreneur or start something
Dorian Mintzer: [00:12:32] Up or, you know, the fastest growing segment of the population of entrepreneurs or people over 50. So there are many, many people who want to become entrepreneurs, or it’s often called solopreneurs. And you know, it’s important to let yourself think about what’s involved. Often, it’s nice if you know somebody who’s maybe started their own business or perhaps what a franchise call them, find out how they went about doing it. Maybe shadow them, you know, learn. You know, this client I mentioned earlier, it’s been so interesting. I mean, he really has set up sort of steps for himself of things he wants to learn so that he can maybe morph into, you know, some different professions because he knows he has a lot of vital years ahead of him. And although he doesn’t need to be, and he’s luckily handled his finance as well, he wants to be able to do something where he’s bringing a little money in so he doesn’t have to worry about the unknowns of health care in the future or things like that. But little small steps, you know, if you start getting overwhelmed, it means you’re just trying to take on too much, too fast, break it into small little steps because then you could accomplish it and just think about what? What is it that lights a Ferrari? What are things you see other people doing that, you know? Gosh, that would be interesting to do? Or what were things even when you were five or six, seven or eight years old, whatever you know that you had an interest in and then it got squashed because of just life and life’s responsibilities.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:14:19] There’s probably more inside of you than you’re aware, so take that time. Think about it. Reflect on it. Talk to people. Ask for help. Get some coaching or therapy. There’s just so many opportunities. And it would be a shame not to, you know, recognize that. One statistic I always like to share is by the time you’re sixty five, it’s less about your genes, the genetics and more about lifestyle. How you take care of yourself. Spirituality. Meaningful relationships. Purpose. Connection engagement. Those are things we can control. So I’m a firm believer in taking little steps to try to control the parts you can even beginning your day with exercise, you know, get a little structure going, a reason to get out of bed in the morning. That can be a first step or an additional step of just thinking about what’s not working for you right now.
Paul Long: [00:15:19] How much of a hindrance is the lack of a better way of expressing it? You can’t teach an old dog new tricks. You know, you’ve got you’ve got you’ve got these, but you’ve got decades of thinking a certain way about life and about who you are. This identity that you’ve developed in your profession and maybe your family life and such. And in making that shift to either reconnect with something that’s always been in you and you haven’t been able to express or finding something new. I mean, how how hard is it to kind of open that vista of possibilities that are before you?
Dorian Mintzer: [00:15:59] You know, there’s no simple right answer because we’re all different people. But I think that there are a lot of myths about aging. And when I commented, Yes, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. One of the myths about aging is, you know, older people are just so rigid and set in their ways. And yeah, I mean, we’ve been doing a lot of things maybe the same way for a lot of time, but my experience and research speaks to it too is it’s not really the case. If you don’t want it to be, you know, it’s a choice to really open to possibilities and to say, you know, this has worked for me for a long while, but maybe it’s not working as well now. Or maybe I want to try to do it in a different way. It does take some. It’s a risk, you know, it’s a risk to say I deserve to feel as happy and vital and centered and whole as I can in these years ahead. And you know, it does, I think with people just trying to open, even though I’m so used to doing things in a certain way, you know, maybe actually I can learn some other things that work better for me now.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:17:19] So again, you know, it’s important to find support. You know, who are people around you that you can talk to and that maybe can help you recognize again, as I said before, that you’re not alone or seek out the help, as I said of a coach, or talk to whomever is part of your life, whoever said part of your life about, you know, things that you want to do and maybe people will want to do things with you so you don’t have to do things alone. But it is important to confront some of the myths about aging. It’s easy to what’s called internalize it. It’s easy to to believe those myths and operate as though they’re true, you know, so that you begin to say, Well, I can’t do it because I’m, you know, such and such an age. Or, you know, if you believe that it’s it’s going to inform your not being able to do things. So if you can, you know, recognize I am a firm believer that like 70 is not the new 50 or 60 is not the new 40 because that’s still holding on to the the youth of which we want to be young inside. But Sixties, the new 60 50 is the new 50 and the new 60, and the new 50 are people who say, Wow, there’s a lot of possibilities out there.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:18:37] I want to embrace life. I want to learn things. I want to keep learning. You know, maybe one thing you could explore is there’s lifelong learning programmes in all communities around the country and even around the globe. I’m aware of the Third World universities around the globe that are fabulous, their ways of connecting with people, meeting people, taking courses, learning new things, maybe even using your skills and teaching things. Little steps, though, where you don’t isolate yourself or you don’t end up feeling like the victim. And it’s all in the past rather than ahead, because then it will be that would be a taking on those myths and sort of having an expired date on your forehead rather than, you know. There are so many, hopefully good, healthy years ahead. And even, I must say many people embrace multiple chronic illnesses and terminal illnesses and still make wonderful lives for themselves. But it’s it’s believing enough in yourself that you can take those little steps and recognize that you can design as you can’t control everything in life, but you can design parts of how you live your life.
Paul Long: [00:19:51] I like that a lot because I think there is this general notion that your best years are behind you or something they just really set. Me off was reading an article, and I blogged about this, that was in the New Republic in which a Silicon Valley company actually called out in their job, posting, We’re only interested in people who have their best work ahead of them and how many people have done their best work in their fifties, sixties, seventies and even 80s. And but I think I think we even can sometimes lose that sense that some of our best work or some of the best years of our lives can still be ahead. And it doesn’t necessarily just mean going on a cruise or playing a lot of golf or something stereotypical.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:20:41] That’s where the self-reflection I think comes in, you know, recognizing you’ve got a lot of years of experience, a perspective of learning from mistakes and bouncing back. Developing resilience. These are things that you bring to whatever situation you get into, whether it be a work situation or a volunteer situation. It’s it’s that part of believing in yourself that, you know, you really bring a lot to situations that younger people who haven’t had a lot of those experience don’t bring to it. And I’m a firm believer in intergenerational, and I know a lot of times people say, Oh, you know, I couldn’t possibly work with people who are younger than me or younger people don’t want to work with older people. That’s where believing in yourself and, you know, presenting your best self in the perspective and the wisdom you have and learning from younger people and mentoring younger people also. I mean, I think the intergenerational is going to really be a whole lot of what is going to be helpful as we move ahead in the twenty first century.
Paul Long: [00:21:51] Oh, absolutely. And again, I blogged and I’ve got done interviews on that, you know, the whole diversity and inclusion thing where companies are realizing that they need a broad mix of people from bat with different backgrounds and perspectives. And one thing that you know, young talents need is they need people who have the kind of skill set, skill sets and experience that can only come from a long, successful career. The millions of things that you learn that you don’t even know that you learn and and and and and they need to be mentored just like we were mentored.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:22:26] Absolutely. But it’s opening yourself. It’s taking risks. It’s saying to yourself, you know, yeah, I’ve done it this way for so long. Not try something different now. And giving yourself permission. I think a lot of it is giving yourself permission to say, you know, maybe I have less years ahead of me than I have behind me, but why not embrace them and live them as fully as you can so that you don’t end up having a lot of regrets? You know, I’m a believer of doing today and don’t just put off till tomorrow so that you you live your life as fully as you
Paul Long: [00:23:06] Can with your clients and with others that you’ve met with and talked with. How much is legacy on their mind meaning? You know, I raised a good family, maybe, or boy, you know, I had a good career or whatever the case may be. But man, you know, on my deathbed, am I going to really look back and say I made a difference? Is that much on people’s minds in this face?
Dorian Mintzer: [00:23:30] Oh, absolutely. I think it’s it’s it’s a key area it’s tied in. I mean, I think I was going to say it’s tied into meaningful relationships, a feeling like you could make a difference. I think we all want to feel like we’ve left a thumbprint or a footprint or whatever and legacy doesn’t have to be the big L.. It doesn’t have to just be money. It’s, you know, if you think about it, how we interact with people as part of our legacy, our work can be part of our legacy. Parenting can be part of our legacy. And I think that as we get older, people are thinking about it more. How do I want to be remembered? And it’s important to think about it and recognize that you can have, you know, there may be some things you want to do in that realm at this stage of your life. You know, sometimes people decide they want to write their memoir or they want to take time and put together the family photos, you know, or make videos and, you know, talk to each child or grandchildren or sibling or, you know, it doesn’t have to be blood relatives. It can be, you know, whoever whoever is part of your extended family by relationships that I think are so important. People often want to emote, moving all to write what are called ethical wills. Letters, you know, to children or leases, you know about what your values are.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:25:04] There’s so many ways to think about how do you want to be remembered? And again, I’m a believer control the part you can. So it could be an area that you decide to devote some time to doing some writing or the oral histories or even deciding, you know you want to interview with your parents are still alive or aunts and uncles. Interview them, you know, start working on oral histories of your family. It could give you a sense of purpose and meaning, and it may just be another part of how you want to live this part of your life. But yes, legacy is big. The other thing that I think happens more as we get older is it’s not unusual for people to perhaps become a bit more spiritual, and that doesn’t necessarily mean religious. But you know, I think there are these mid-life shifts we go through. It’s sort of like, what’s it all about? Who am I? Or if you’re in a relationship? Who are we? And you know, some people go back to maybe the religion. They grew up with some experiment. Some, as I said, it’s not any religion base, but it’s just trying to figure out again, what’s it all about? What’s the meaning of life? How do I make sense of things? And I think that’s part of what helps make us more whole and an important part of who am I? And also how do I want to be remembered?
Paul Long: [00:26:36] So going back to what do I do a moment ago, we talked about if you find yourself a few years into retirement and your real life or traditional stereotypical retirement, it’s not right for me. What if I’m approaching it at whatever age am I’m in my fifties? I’m 10 years away or I’m one year away. What kind of steps? What kind of process can I go through to a challenge? My assumptions clear those up and make sure that that that I’m at least starting on a good path to live the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years of my life.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:27:17] Well, I think part is to start, as I said before, to reflect and to think and to kind of puzzle it out, you know, to think about, what do you envision when you think about this next stage of life, what you know, what is your ideal kind of retirement transition? What do you imagine yourself doing to yourself with? Where do you imagine yourself living? Do you imagine yourself looking, not working, volunteering and playing, golf, traveling? You know, all of the different components? Try to let yourself begin to just sort of reflect on what and how, what life would be, but at the same time. So that’s a forward thinking. At the same time, I think it’s helpful to reflect backwards and to think about things like what are three of the most wonderful things that you’ve done, you know that you’re really proud of. And then think about why you know, what was it that made them made that such a special thing for you? Was it what you accomplished? Was it where you were or was it who you were with? Was it using some talents and skills? It’s very helpful to do that. You can do it with three things you can even do it with more things. But as I said, little steps. So let’s start with three. One of the things you’re proud of what, as I said earlier, what are your skills? You know, a lot of times we don’t pay attention to what our skills are. What are the things you’ve learned over the years? What are things you like doing? What are the things you didn’t like doing? What are your strengths? You know, there are ways so many things now on the internet where you can there free assessments, where you can learn what your strengths are and your character strengths.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:29:16] And for many people, it’s sort of this Aha. Oh yeah, I kind of knew that’s sort of what’s been important to me. And for many, it’s it’s kind of an eye opener like, gosh, I hadn’t really thought about, you know, that this is important to me. Maybe I want to think about how do I build that a little bit more into my life? Or if I wasn’t able to use that strength and work that I did, maybe I want to think about using that strength and maybe doing some volunteer work or maybe getting another paid job where I’m able to do that. So evaluating your strengths, evaluating your values again online there many kind of. Value assessments where they’re values listed and you’re able to be able to say, yeah, that is a value, or I hadn’t thought about that. And again, with any of these things, just to mention with any of these things too, you can do it yourself. You can talk with others, but also just recognize there are people out there coaches and therapists to, you know, help you with this if you know, if you feel like that would be helpful for you.
Paul Long: [00:30:25] Yeah. And I would be remiss if I didn’t bring up the fact that on Pro Boomer, you can see Elaina love and how she worked with the University of Michigan to do a passion test. What’s your real passion? Not meaning golf or fashion or something like that, but rather what are the archetypes? What are those things in you that are really important to you? Which, to your point, getting in touch with that can really to me, that’s a critical first step to get going in any direction. A second thing I wonder about, too, is is is that think through like, what’s this really going to look like? And what I mean by that is, is that and we’ve discussed this with the number of people, and it always seems to be a bit of an aha moment is just that so much of life is contrast. You know, that vacation is meaningful because if you’ve been working your butt off and that if all of a sudden you can sleep late whenever you want to, you can take a vacation whenever you want to. You can go do some activity that you love whenever you want to, and you don’t have the contrast of hard work or not being able to do it that all of a sudden that’s where I would have a hard time getting up. That’s when I would be waking up depressed instead of excited.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:31:41] Well, and again. The important step is sort of reflecting and knowing that about yourself, and that’s where I think sometimes people try to think ahead of time, or it may be that it catches up with you, you know, after the fact. And again, it doesn’t make you a bad person. It means maybe you just need to think about how to do something differently. You know, what is it that will get you out of bed in the morning? And, you know, sometimes it’s just even setting up a protocol where you get up and you do some mitigation when you get up and you read your email. You get up and you take a walk or you plan to go exercise or maybe connecting with a buddy to go exercise. You have a more of accountability in order to get there. But it is true. I mean, it’s part of what I said before of the planning or default, and I’m not a believer in over planning. I mean, I think it’s helpful to develop your vision. And if you’re in a relationship, develop and look at where it aligns or doesn’t align with your partner, what things you want to do together, what things you want to do separately.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:32:54] But like with any vision, it’s you need to be it. It can’t be written in stone, just like a financial portfolio. It’s like develop your personal portfolio and how you’d like to live these years, but reevaluate it. Interests me. Change finances may change, health may change, and sometimes we have to change our dreams with that. And again, the being open and recognizing that, you know, if you if it if you have this vision that it can only be one way and then life changes on a dime like it often does, then you’re going to despair. But if you can, you know, have a general idea of what you’d like to do, how you’d like to live your life, what would help you feel more whole, what would be a way you’d like to be remembered? Then it, you know, in the face of needing to change some of your dreams, you know, you can step back and say, OK, if I can’t do that, let me think about doing this.
Paul Long: [00:33:55] You’re not too old to pivot.
Dorian Mintzer: [00:33:56] That’s so old to pivot. Exactly. That’s a good way to put it, but you need to believe that so that you can pivot just for example. I mean, you know, people, as we get older, sometimes our knees go or the hips or whatever. And yeah, nowadays luckily they can be replaced. But sometimes maybe the hiking that you did when you were younger, you can’t do as much now. So you figure out other things, you know, or maybe you can’t hike high altitudes so you hike elsewhere or you walk instead of a hike or you discover bicycle is not so hard on you. You know, you change some of those dreams now. Those are the more active ones. But there can be, you know, dreams in many realms of your life. I always like the puzzle pieces, you know, all these different parts of your life and you know, where you live may need to change. Or you know your relationship with family, siblings, adult children, nieces, nephews. Things may change as people’s health changes. You know, as you know, you’re less able to do things, but you know that hopefully is later down the road. But it’s helpful to think about now and also not to be afraid of thinking about, you know, what are some other things you want to develop in your life so that if and when you can’t be perhaps as active or do things, you still have the things you’re going to be able to do and feel and experience.